Advocating piracy is one thing, but now banning people for believing in copyright? That’s like banning people for following the law. That is banning people for following the law. What gives? And to think a while ago I declared I wouldn’t have any reason to not take their bans (or the motives behind them) seriously.
Are we trying to get world governments to ban Lemmy (or, worse, the fediverse)? Love the administrative decisions or hate them, such decisions will drag down the whole fediverse. Typically sites are defederated to protect the sites defederating them from liability. Will this be an example, or does this, out of convenience, not apply? Are we forgetting a large portion of the fediverse’s demographics consist of artists trying to make a damn living?
OP, you reading this wrong on many levels, review the comments and provide proper post on
!yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com
so the community can provide proper feed back if mod is in fact power tripping.
OP has very little understanding of the fediverse given they don’t know how bans work and appears to dislike the fediverse quite a lot given their other post and this one as well.
It’s just Leni trolling under an alt
god damn it…
nice troll leni!
Dbzer0 is explicitly anti-copyright. It’s in the sidebar and when you sign up.
It was a mod that did it, not an admin.
It was a community, not the entire site.
Jesus Christ, reading is a thing.
I counted way more than two communities. That’s often said to mean it’s an instance ban.
In case people missed it (I will assume good faith here), “anti-AI troll” is another way of saying “this person is concerned about copyright”.
Jesus Christ, reading is a thing.
Ah, but reading comprehension sadly, is not.
TLDR: OP has no idea the difference between comms and instances, or what the fediverse actually is, and thinks dumbasses trolling AI art comms are doing nothing wrong.
I counted a dozen communities where this happened. Typically, when someone is banned from multiple communities for the same reason simultaneously, an admin is involved and that it might be an instance ban in disguise. Is this wrong?
It really does seem like the entire concept of decentralized, ground up, mutually interconnected systems… is just actually incomprehensible to a certain number of people.
Things can be organized in a complex manner, but also not centralized with a god king or round table of mob bosses at the top of everything?
Unpossible!!!
I want to talk to the manager’s manager!
I counted a dozen communities where this happened. Typically, when someone is banned from multiple communities for the same reason simultaneously, an admin is involved and that it might be an instance ban in disguise. Is this wrong?
I guess it could functionally be an instance ban if literally every single comm moderator got together and banned a user from every single comm on an instance…
But I am not seeing that. I am seeing a slew of users getting banned from 2 or 3 comms focused on different kinds of AI-gen art, because they’ve been virulently anti-ai art in those comms and elsewhere.
Its also fairly common for a single person to be a mod of several smaller niche comms… and if the whole thing is that they’ve identified a person as combatative troll who breaks other various rules in other various places… then yeah, they just get put on a shit-disturber/troll blacklist, for those comms that are small and basically function as safe spaces for small groups.
As I understand it, as I read the modlog… these users you’ve included in your post screenshots and such are not literally banned from the entire dbzero instance, nor all its comms… if either of those were the case, you could see it in the modlogs.
Again, as I understand it… while modlogs obsure the name of the moderator or admin taking an action… all actions are otherwise detailed in full.
I guess it could functionally be an instance ban if literally every single comm moderator got together and banned a user from every single comm on an instance…
It’s more like a federation glitch. The modlogs don’t always represent a situation correctly. Hence what you said after that. On my end, it appears as multiple communities. So I stand corrected.
General best practice for viewing modlogs:
Go to the actual instance’s website and view their own modlog.
That’s why I provided the link to it my post a couple levels up. Sometimes silly stuff can happen if you don’t do it that way.
Also, for what its worth, I’m not the one throwing the single downvote on these more recent comments between us.
I mean, there are admins and mods, don’t oversell it. ^^’ But also I am honestly lost on how do you manage to think of hundreds of interconnected forums basically as one thing.
Its true, there will probably always be admins and mods, to some extent… but like on the dbzer0 instance, they’re kind of big into having some open, democratic input back toward the behavior of mods and admins… but yeah I wouldn’t say that level of attempting to actually be accountable is common on lemmy in general, so I am overselling it a bit, lol.
At the same time, I stand by the idea that many people just actually cannot comprehend the concept of a non rigid, non totally top down, centralized hierarchy, the concept is not mentally parseable for them.
Which is funny, because even in the most commonly cited examples of such things, like say a military command structure… yeah turns out if you dive into one of those, you often find that its more effective and efficient to give individual units within the larger hierarchy a good deal more leeway and independent decision making autonomy, than it is to keep everything strictly top down… because such a structure can respond better and more quickly when shit goes awry, makes a leadership decapitation strike less devastating, etc etc.
I mean, imma be honest. Hierarchy helps. You need someone up there to see the bigger picture. But you also need enough horizontal movement to be able to execute the piece of it that falls to you.
I am gonna be blunt also, I am one of people who cannot graps actually horizontal structure on bigger tasks etc. I do however get it on smaller scale and with competent people, it’s probably hella more efficient. For example thanks to not overloading someone “up there” with decisions and responsibilities.
Oh I completely agree that certain kinds and degrees of hierarchy are or can be more efficient than… absolutely none.
It very much depends on what the organization is attempting to achieve, what its scope and size are.
Generally speaking, you can’t really achieve too many complex, specific goals… without some manner of organizing your endeavor.
It sounds like, to me at least, you actually do grasp this better than you think you do, realizing that this is actually a complex topic with many potential variables at play.
You wanna learn a martial art?
How to shoot a gun?
Yeah, a fairly strict, top down, rigid hierarchy with strict rules probably makes more sense, because the potential downsides of ‘crowd sourcing’ the learning experience could be literally fatal, and these things are usually done at the scale of 5, 10, 20 people in a class.
But, if you scale that exact same structure all the way up to an entire military, you end up with WW1 style shit where entire divisions are thrown into advancing through a friendly artilery barrage due to poor timing or a delayed message, the overall commander being overwhelmed, the rigidity of strict top down adherence to all orders from superiors and fear of insubordination leading to massive catastrophic self inflicted losses.
Conversely, a very, very poorly coordinated set of guerrilla warfare style, totally autonomous allied fighting forces… might accidentally end up ambusing each other, or each cell decides to attack the same percieved enemy vulnerability at the same time, and then all point fingers at each other when they realize no one is now defending some critical asset or area, which has now been captured or destroyed.
For a business endeavor… very similar dynamics can play out.
Maybe far too much management leads to nothing actually getting done, or even worse, dramaticly expensive projects that end up being a barely functional mess, because everyone is spending more time in meetings than working, constantly having their work and project scope changed, altered, amended…
Or maybe there is too little direction, and everyone is doing neat cool pet projects, but the critical underlying business processes are being neglected or overwhelmed.
It is always a balancing act.
If you have a more lateral, more horizontal org structure… those individual units or components need to be more independently capable, which can be more costly than a more streamlined structure, but it can also be more resilient and flexible overall.
And there probably does still need to be some kind of mechanism for coordinating the overall actions of the units/components.
You’ve also got the whole dynamic of… does your org structure actually promote people to positions of more relative responsibility and power… via merit and actual competency?.. or does it just reward sycophantic ass kissers, or self serving, machiavellian behind the scenes manipulators?
Or, if you have a more diffuse, flat, democratic ‘power structure’… does it spend all of its time debating things and not actually doing anything? or does it have some method of internally regulating that problem?
A - That was a mod, not an admin. We didn’t do shit.
B - What the hell are you even trying to do, anymore? like genuinely, i have no idea what you’re trying to aim for.
edit: Also fuck copyright.
That was a mod, not an admin. We didn’t do shit.
A mod banned the individual from a dozen communities?
What the hell are you even trying to do, anymore? like genuinely, i have no idea what you’re trying to aim for.
It’s just everyday commentary. I don’t see where the confusion is. Everything I’ve said reflects something that concerns me.
edit: Also fuck copyright.
Using someone’s work without their permission is exploitation. People have to spend time out of their day to make something creative, so coattail riding off of them takes away the incentive to make the art, which interferes with the artistic process. The ancient Romans even knew enough to have a concept of copyright. In the very least, people should be giving credit to the artists, as you would when you are gifted something.
dozen communities
It’s literally two.
It’s just everyday commentary. I don’t see where the confusion is. Everything I’ve said reflects something that concerns me.
You’re going to a drama community to stir up shit. There was nothing to be angry at, here.
Using someone’s work without their permission is exploitation. People have to spend time out of their day to make something creative, so coattail riding off of them takes away the incentive to make the art, which interferes with the artistic process. The ancient Romans even knew enough to have a concept of copyright. In the very least, people should be giving credit to the artists, as you would when you are gifted something.
We could blabber about this all day; this is the average leftist stance, and i’m not here to convert you. That is our instance’s stance, and it will never change.
“Anti-AI troll” appears in more than just those two. That’s shorthand for being concerned with copyright.
I double checked and you are still wrong. The only two communities are !stable_diffusion_witches@lemmy.dbzer0.com and !stable_diffusion_mycology@lemmy.dbzer0.com.
Oh. I read those all as different people. My bad.
Yeah, I thought I recognised OP from somewhere, and not in a good way.
I’ve never had any of the names described above.
I never said you did.
That being said: yes, you did.
People would think that not remembering that copyright is more than just about the distribution.
Fuck the whole concept of owning ideas. Human culture should be free for all to use.
Check the Dbzer0 sidebar. The instance is literally explicitly anti-copyright.
My surprise lies in the fact there’s a difference between being anti-copyright and banning people for being pro-copyright.
You can believe in whatever you want in other comms, that have different policy. Nothing will happen with fediverse if you won’t or will support copyright.
Whole services have shut down because they don’t support copyright. YouTube’s very first legal battle had to do with copyright. Discord shuts down several servers a day because those servers violate copyright. Scientology exists solely because of the power of copyright law. Copyright enforcement is quite big.
So? It’s not illegal to talk about it, it’s not illegal in multiple countries in europe in general, it’s not illegal to ban you.
DBZer0Two communities in dBZer0 have begun banning people simply forbelieving inposting apologia for the concept of copyright.Which, without further context, is still a bit of an overreach IMO, but nowhere near as extreme as your title suggests.
That’s like banning people for following the law. That is banning people for following the law.
Lol fuck the law. I wipe my ass with the law. Banning people for following the law is turbo-based when the law is turbo garbage. Again, I don’t think that simply apologizing for copyright warrants a ban without further context, but “I was banned for following the law” is a terrible argument and I had to speak out about it.
Are we forgetting a large portion of the fediverse’s demographics consist of artists trying to make a damn living?
I was a music producer before going into engineering and I’ve always been against copyright lol. Copyright is a terrible minefield for doing work in my craft.
I counted way more than two communities.
In case people missed it (I will assume good faith here), “anti-AI troll” is another way of saying “this person is concerned about copyright”.
“anti-AI troll” is another way of saying “this person is concerned about copyright”
…are you sure about that? There are lots of arguments against AI that aren’t related to copyright, e.g. displacement of workers and environmental impacts. Considering that those forums are explicitly a place to appreciate AI content, I imagine it would be quite annoying to relitigate that issue in their home turf. So if the mods wanted to call out copyright, why not just do so explicitly?
The fact there are a few entries that have both “anti-AI troll” and “copyright apologia” as motives suggests the person was engaging in both.
You were against copyright? the thing that got you paid and prevented me from just ripping your stuff for free lol
Yes, I always was and I am against copyright, full stop. Copyright makes it harder for people to share my music, which is why I gave it away. I was working in music for the music, but the little money I did make was from producing for others. The only reason I’m not posting it here is because I don’t want to dox myself.
IMO the most important sources of income for musicians are live performances and *merch". This is also what we were taught in recording school. I barely got paid for my digital downloads, although I did get a few people paying even when I released it for free.
I would unironically be thrilled to find out someone pirated my shit. At least then someone thought it was important enough to steal.
And also I’m on Bandcamp. It’s super easy to just rip my stuff. It’s not as if copyright was protecting me from anything 😆.
Copyright is more than just about the distribution. Copyright laws…
- Encourage credit to be given, when people often otherwise not give credit
- Prevent people from making money from something that is given away for free
- Prevent people from making fake versions of a book, like what happened to the fifth Harry Potter book
- Through all of this maintain incentive for artists to make art
- Encourage credit to be given, when people often otherwise not give credit
Even with copyright, musicians steal parts from each other all the time. Same with other art forms. Taking small parts of other people’s art is normal and how art gets created. And there are social consequences even under capitalism to stealing an entire work without credit which are less formal than legal ones, but just as important for artists looking to keep doing art.
- Prevent people from making money from something that is given away for free
… this is not necessarily a bad thing. For example, I would happily buy a copy of Mutual Aid by Kropotkin even if Kropotkin or his descendants don’t get compensated because someone put in the work to print the book.
- Prevent people from making fake versions of a book, like what happened to the fifth Harry Potter book
Again, there are social and legal consequences even under capitalism for selling people things under false pretenses.
- Through all of this maintain incentive for artists to make art
I 1000% do not want to consume art created primarily for profit. Profit-driven art is soulless corpo-trash. It takes up air that could be used by serious organic artists. Driving out profit-seeking behavior is strictly positive IMO. I want to drive out profit-seeking behavior everywhere forever, but art is a great place to start.
The artist doesn’t need to be an artist-for-profit for it to apply. They just need to be someone who can say they spent all day on an art piece. The incentive for that goes away when it amounts to something that other people can enjoy without any boundaries.
I spent literal months on my album when I finally finished it. I spent a whole month going through the drum track note by note adjusting each hit so it was just how I wanted it to sound. I reamped my guitars with hundreds of dollars of gear, actually positioned physical microphones and moved real air to get the sound I wanted. The incentive for that effort was solely to produce the product and have something I could share with people. Yeah getting money here and there is nice, but the real motivation was to actually do the thing for its own sake.
And one of the most consistent stories I hear from musicians is that becoming financially dependent on your art places a severe boundary on what kind of art you’re allowed to produce. For example, if you’re a death metal band and you make your money off death metal, you might have to make a couple more albums of death metal even if, in your heart of hearts, you want to make prog rock now, just to put food on the table.
well of course you dont care, your music apparently has no monetary value (which is fine, but why would you care about copyright when your music makes no money?)
Do you even realize you just disqualified yourself from productive discussion
Copyright didn’t help him since he never made any money off his own work, what discussion is there to have? Why would someone without anything they need to protect, care. Ofc he doesn’t like copyright
what did i just say motherfucker
The law can take down the fediverse. Well, suit yourself then.
Also not sure how one can do apologia without believing in what they’re saying.
Also not sure how one can do apologia without believing in what they’re saying.
…you can just lie to people… like trolls…
But even if we assume for charitability’s sake that apologia ==> believing in the cause, that does not automatically mean that apologia <== believing in the cause. Like they’re not being banned for your beliefs. That user was banned for advocating for them. Which again, without context is still an overreach IMO, but this is absolutely not someone being banned for simply having the wrong opinion.
The law can take down the Fediverse
Can they? Sure they can take down individual servers, sure they can
make it impossible for money grubbers to make money heremake it hard to be profitable, but they can’t take us all out.When a government blocks a website in a country, they do so by registering the website’s name on a list of websites held by the internet providers. They can do this to any website federated with a certain website they want blocked until they’re all blocked. They have blocked email providers before, if you want a rough model of how this would work.
Okay but once you block all the existing Fediverse sites, some people spin up new sites and we can move over to those. And I think PieFed has an option to copy and move whole communities.
But also…I honestly think that the public at large needs to treat world governments and corporations as adversarial threats to be actively circumvented, even for completely benign things like applying for work or talking to people online. I.e. we need to socially normalize the mass usage of Tor and other anonymizing software because the people who least of all deserve power are the ones who control our internet.
They’re still going to try. Russia already has, and they’re the home of Marxism-Leninism.
Yeah they’re going to try to it, or really just force it on us, regardless of what we do. The people who run our world governments…they already are the monsters, they already are the warlords, they already are the people they told us to fear. They have insulated themselves from the will of the public.
So it’s not a matter of “if”, it’s a matter of “when”. Really, we shouldn’t be considering what governments demand of us, because they don’t consider what we demand of them. We need mass mobilization of the public. And at least on the online front, that’s reasonably easy: everyone should be on Tor as much as possible, everyone should be using adblock when forced onto the clearnet, everyone should ditch all FAANG [1] services and be using FOSS federated alternatives as much as possible, and people who provide web services should accept connections from Tor endpoints and people who “look legally sketchy”.
[1] Yes I’m aware that a lot of Fediverse sites use AWS in the backend. I think that, at some point, we need to move away from AWS, even if it means significantly downsizing the Fediverse and the rest of the Internet.
Well its kinda true to their instance, being full on anarcho.
We at least want Lemmy to not get the same fate Tiktok almost did, right?
How? Lemmy is federated. If tiktok was banned, tiktok was “banned.” If dbzer0 is banned, .world and .wtf still work.
We at least want Lemmy to not get the same fate Tiktok almost did, right?
what fate? The one that was just a stupid stunt by Trump? Literally can’t be happening on the fediverse as the instances are distributed across the whole world.
And you don’t think Trump would apply a stunt like that to the fediverse? He currently has a program where the government vets immigrants for their social media posts when they sign up for American citizenship. I would dare pray someone moving to America who has a Lemmy profile doesn’t get found out as a lemming.
And you don’t think Trump would apply a stunt like that to the fediverse?
He’s just an idiot in a powerful position, he probably isn’t even aware of the fediverse. And even if he was, he can’t do anything about ALL of the fediverse, as it is spaning globally and developed mainly in europe.
It’s 100% possible to block a website in one country that comes from another country. It doesn’t affect the website in its own country, but it still prevents the website from being usable in the country that blocked it.
In the past, I too may have said he’s probably not aware of the fediverse, but then a fediverse mod blew up a fertility clinic a few weeks ago. That at least puts us all on the far edges of the NSA’s radar. Even Kiwi Farms has never produced any mass saboteurs.
