Chromebooks fucked a generation of kids? Kids got cheap, hard to break, up to date, easy to replace laptops which ran a full desktop and even offered a Linux and android subsystem. Certainly not perfect but better than alternatives like the iPad or Windows S.
I agree, and I think it takes almost MAGA level self-absorption to contrive this interpretation of events. What actually happened was somebldy wanted to sell products and came up with products people wanted. And that’s not an all-encompassing endorsement of Google and everything Google has ever done because I’m “on Google’s side”, it’s a criticism of OP’s imagination.
It’s this and it’s not. Chromebooks don’t give kids anywhere to explore outside of chrome and handheld devices provide a controlled environment. A lot of kids (and adults!) are operating with a tablet in place of a computer because the most intensive thing they need to do if they’re not gaming is word processing. It’s big tech overall and the internet shrinking down into like 3 companies.
As someone who lives and works online. I wish.
It seems super consolidated, right up until you start listing the “handful” of big vendors that run the Internet… You get passed the first 3 or 4 big players and end up with a long list of “of yeah, these guys too”…
Alphabet, Meta, Amazon, Microsoft, CloudFlare, valve (and every other game publisher), Netflix, PayPal, Uber, Spotify, Apple, Yahoo (yes, they still exist), xitter, Rackspace, zoom, Dropbox, Etsy, Pinterest…
The list is super long.
And that’s just companies that people would have heard of. The companies that actually make the Internet work is a much longer list, and GoDaddy plays a surprisingly large role as well. There’s also entire business sectors that most people aren’t aware of, for network transit services, and interconnects.
It’s a pretty deep topic.
I don’t believe that.
It’s likely because the market has consolidated to a small number of companies who can dictate the means of production and how their consumers interact with their product.
When the personal computer market was young, entries from all sorts of manufacturers flooded in. Some failed, some succeeded. Everything had to be configured by the user because universal standards hadn’t been developed yet. This allowed for some people to be exposed to the back end, which have them some understanding of how their technology worked. It enhanced problem solving skills.
If anything, 'Plug and Play" probably had more involvement in enshittification than Google. Taking out the problem solving and moving the goal to consumption.
So the argument is that because Chromebooks just work and don’t need troubleshooting unlike windows so this is Googles fault
OK
A certain group of Boomer-brains are heavily invested in the idea that Millennials are the only generation that knows how to use computers.
So we’ve been seeing a lot of “blame the X for the Y” agitprop that’s increasingly divorced from reality. It’s just the next generation of outrage porn, tailored towards the current generation of 40 year olds.
FOX News ran the same bullshit content for GenXers and Boomers.
No, the argument is that Chromebooks are so limited in what they can offer that kids never learned to do anything out of using the chrome browser.
Turns out you don’t need to worry about troubleshooting something if you just remove that functionality lol
Most Chromebooks offered Linux on them. Even Linus Torvalds used a Chromebook when travelling to develop via it. Presumably because he was sick to death of “troubleshooting” when he had other, better things to do. And presumably schools and teachers also have better things to do than deal with bs like conflicting packages, missing drivers, viruses or whatever on every kid’s device.
All Chromebooks ARE Linux. ChromeOS is a Linux based operating system. Whether or not you can get to the lower level is a different discussion. I had one of the first Chromebooks, you have always been able to root them and do what you want with them.
You are correct that most chromebooks can have Linux installed on them.
I don’t think that’s relevant in a discussion about Chromebooks in a school setting - were schools encouraging their students to install Linux?
Doesn’t matter if they encourage it or, not, the option is there. So if kids want to mess around, compile stuff, run Linux games they can totally do it. The main purpose of the laptop however would be to do work, save / submit stuff to the cloud, run all day and be cheap so if it gets stolen or broken it’s less expense to replace. I think in that role the Chromebook is the best solution anyone came up with. And there were a long line of contenders.
Is the option actually there, as in it’s allowed by school policy? Would you be able to show an example confirming this?
I highly doubt a school IT department would be okay with this. The very post were discussing asserts that it was marketed to schools as something that can be locked down.
I’d also argue that even if it was allowed, whether or not it was encouraged undoubtedly matters.
These are kids we’re talking about, not engineers. Additionally, were discussing technical competence at the generational level, so we’d have to rule out outliers, which I’d handily believe “kids who installed linux on their school Chromebooks” would fall under.
I don’t have my Chromebook to hand but I believe the setting is in the Prefs. When you set up Linux it’s a virtualized Debian that you can pretty much do anything with but it can’t mess with ChromeOS outside. Not all Chromebooks support it since it’s space / CPU dependent but if it does then it’s Linux. I was even running graphical apps since the screen is a Wayland server.
I don’t…think that answered my question?
Would this be against school policy? Are there examples to confirm this?
They don’t need to know how computers work if Chromebooks are the only thing in existence.
They also don’t need to know how to deal with python dependencies if they can pace their code into AI and say why isn’t tkinter working?
Craftsmrn said the same thing about the industrial revolution.
You know how you know even less about computers? When you cannot afford one at all
That’s why they only know what Chromebook offers, they have them in school.
My kid’s school doesn’t have any kind of computer instruction, no computer lab, it’s all Chromebooks.
Is it your genuine belief that your schools would have computer instruction and big easily accessible labs if not for Chromebooks?
I remember “teach kids computers” as an educational panacea during the 80s/90s. It made Micheal Dell very rich, but often at the expense of the biology, chemistry, and physics lab programs. “Nobody knows how to use a blowtorch / dissect an animal / build an engine anymore” was a refrain I heard all the through my high school years.
Has eliminating computer labs brought back the old 70s era Space Race science programs? Or are we still just boiling away ever ounce of the public system that costs money (except athletics, of course)?
I was simply stating why the kids only know Chromebooks. Many poor communities, mine and myself included, have households that don’t have computers at home.
The schools give each kid a Chromebook at the beginning of the year. So it’s the only computer access these kids get.
There isn’t instruction on how PCs work on a base level in my kids middle school, and no computer lab to experiment with. So they only know how to navigate Chromebooks, because that’s their access level
And I mean, They got rid of home economics for the computer lab back when I was a kid. I don’t understand why you brought up the 70s or whatever, I’m aware times and education instruction changes sure, you don’t need to be rude.
The schools give each kid a Chromebook at the beginning of the year. So it’s the only computer access these kids get.
Plenty of kids have access to desktops and laptops through their parents. Libraries also have computer labs with traditional PCs.
There isn’t instruction on how PCs work on a base level in my kids middle school
I’ve never heard of a school that provided middle school computer education outside of small elective classes, and even those only in wealthier districts.
That’s honestly technology in a nutshell. Technological development leads to further abstraction, leading to less low level knowledge. It’s always been this way. Is AI an abstraction step too far, or are we just the next generation of old man yelling at cloud?
AI has value but first a reality check. Most of the time it produces code which doesn’t work and even if it did is usually of terrible quality, inconsistent style, missing checks, security etc. That’s because there is no “thinking” in AI, it’s a crank handle using training and some rng to shit out an answer.
If you know what you’re doing it can still be a useful tool. I use it a lot but only after carefully reading what it says and understanding the many times it is wrong.
If you don’t know how to program everything might look fine. Except when it crashes, or fails on corner cases, or follows bad practice, or drags in bloated 3rd party libs, or runs out of memory on large datasets or whatever. So don’t trust anybody who blindly uses it or claims to be a “vibe” programmer since it amounts to admission of an incompetence.
I asked myself that question a lot.
When cloud first became a thing I yelled at the cloud a lot. Then I got on board with provisioning. And they stepped up the game with load balancers that actually have features security groups SSL unwrapping.
No I realize that one person with a cloud account can do the work of three or four of system engineers.
If you know what you’re doing, you can definitely do this hybrid of vibe coding and real coding. You can’t just give it a problem and tell it to solve it you need to tell it exactly what you’re expecting it to do. Occasionally you can ask it if it has any suggestions and it’ll come back with something that you didn’t think of that’s not a half bad idea.
That said, there’s a lot of idiots out there with zero skill just vibr coating stuff they have no business doing leaving vulnerabilities and caution to the wind.
Before AI we used to refer to the “vibe coders” as “script kiddies”. People who would find a chunk of code and apply it to a job without really knowing what it did.
Fine when they were working alone and what they were up to wasn’t your problem. But as soon as you got into a team project, the code base would start filling up with these patchwork, confused, inefficient solutions to systemic problems.
You’d have the same bug in three different places and you’d have to run down the flaw over and over again, because someone was just copypasta-ing a solution wherever it would fit.
Finally someone who is sane & smart
This seems silly. Lots of kids never learned about computers even when they were available. A chromebook was just an electronic school aid. If the interest was in computers they would learn about computers.
I think this is a fairly dumb take. In the schools that I saw that had chromebooks a kid might be taking English, Math, AND computing. It really was up to the school (and parents) to introduce computing, not the machine that was the general replacement for books.
Anecdotally: a high school near us requires every student to have a computer. They do not hand out chromebooks and the requirement specs are a higher end Mac or PC laptop that the kids are required to bring to classes. These kids use blender, maya 3d, office suite, video and music editing software for example. They absolutely do not know any more about computers then chromebook kids (with a few exceptions). Having access to a computer doesnt magically make them know about how computers work.
The real take is to get kids into PC gaming from a young age. Kids are super patient with each other and now my kid is doing things like installing mods for games that he plays. It’s also massively improved his reading which is mostly how I learned English myself.
Probably a great way to get them comfortable with pc hardware too - want that new GPU? Here you go. Install it, you just get the one so be careful and learn how to do it right.
I can thank Minecraft for making me learn how to use the computer because I wanted to install mods and for learning English because Minecraft let’s plays were like crack to 10 year old me and basically all of them were in English
Nah
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a fan of big corporations, but Schools are gonna have to be using Device Management programs regardless of what OS they use (so that kids don’t play video games, or use social media, or watch adult videos, in the classroom). Giving kids a Managed Windows Laptop with tons of restrictions does nothing to “improve tech literacy” either, so just as bad as a chrombook.
Also, wealth is also a factor. If you only have money for one device, and everyone has a smartphone, and you kids are gonna get socially ostricized in school for not having one, of course you’re gonna prioritize giving them a smartphone first, which in turn, delays them learning how to use a computer, and I mean like a computer you actually own and can modify however you want, as opposed to the school-owned managed device. (Its harder to learn that when you’re older)
I am pretty confident it’s the smartphone OSs (Android and iOS) that are more at fault. I remember having to install a file browser on my smartphone. Kids grown up with smartphones may not even know there are files and folder structures.
Yeah, and I feel like you could play around with javascript to make stuff happen in the browser on a chrome book, can’t you?
I’m old enough that it was BASIC I played around with when I was a kid. Not a language I ever used since, but the important thing is to get a feel for logic, make some incredibly stupid choices when making a program and learn from that. If a kid wants to play around on a computer to make it do something they created, I think they’ll find a way.
Also AI can be helpful when starting on a new language. Yeah I had to learn the hard way by googling stuff and getting the syntax wrong, and using a lot of guess work. There’s still a learning curve before you just know the syntax without stopping to think or asking the AI, but it was that way before, it was just googling things you gotta do before you really know it. And before that a lot more trial and error to figure it out.
This is kinda a bad take imo. I don’t think it’s chrome books that has ruined tech literacy. Maybe it’s younger exposure to even more addictive social media than previous generations?
I’m pretty young. My first mobile device was an iPod touch 4th gen. I figured out how to jailbreak it and I was like 12 at the time. If I ever felt one of these walled garden devices was holding me back, I enjoyed finding a creative solution around that. Since that iPod touch, I jailbroke my Wii and recently a kindle. I also modded a gameboy, but that was different than jailbreaking.
Yeah it’s a fucking abysmal take. More kids had access to the internet and computers because of Chromebooks, without them they’d have had nothing - maybe once an hour in the computer lab each week, assuming they even had one.
Prior to Chromebooks, the most a school could do was “a computer in every classroom”. That was it, that was the ambition in the early 2000’s and even then most schools failed.
What happened was tech companies made computers easier to use by hiding a lot of that complexity. And average humans were fine with that because shit should just work.
The arguments being raised here about a loss of skills are the same arguments boomers used against millennials because they didn’t know how to do DIY and shit like that.
The blame is always squarely on the education system. That system is supposed to set kids up with the skills they need to make it in the wold and tech literacy is one of many, many areas that is hugely underserved.
were fine with that because shit should just work.
This was Apple’s literal marketing campaign when they were trying to make Macs popular again
And say what you will about apple, it worked (the slogan, not the Macs)
Before Chromebooks we had one aging computer lab that the entire school had to reserve and share. Kids never even learned to type. I was able to improve students typing ability before they hit High School.
Because we had Chromebooks (that I raised money for with fundraisers) my students were able to learn to use digital data logging of science experiments using probes, my students were able to learn to design websites, I was able to teach them programming basics using Scratch, I was able teach kids basic IT management since I created a team of kids to assist with tech problems students and teachers had with their technology. I taught them CAD with TinkerCAD, I taught them video editing, I taught them image editing, etc.
Chromebooks were amazing.
Not to mention that Chromebooks are Linux (so can be modded for basically anything), but these days have official native support for sideloading any Linux distro you please. All it takes is a flashed USB drive and one button click, then you’re totally unrestricted and out of ChromeOS.
If any kid wanted to, they could do that far easier than I could when I was in school. If they become adults, buy a Chromebook, and choose to do nothing with it other than watch YouTube, then it has absolutely nothing to do with the technology that was provided to them during school.
official native support for sideloading any Linux distro you please.
I thought you had to remove a write protect screw and flash a custom firmware.
Have they stopped that now?
The school doesn’t let you do that. Because if you installed Linux you could install games, and then you might get distracted. Never mind the fact that YouTube is still completely available.
I looked into this back when I was in school and there was some weird workaround found by someone on reddit that essentially forced it to do a complete factory reset. I didn’t want to get in trouble for doing that, and if I did that I wouldn’t have been able to connect to the wifi anymore.
Do you mean like booting off Linux or installing it? I was looking at installing Linux on Chromebooks and apparently it really depends on the model. Some have a physical screw that you open up the laptop and unscrew to install Linux.
What are the advantages of a jailbroken kindle? I’ve thought about it but there isn’t really anything I lack on mine.
My motivation was mostly to ditch Amazon, but in the process I discovered ko reader is both better than Amazon’s reader and does a really good job turning PDFs into readable books.
What did you jailbreak your ipod with, though? Was it a chromebook?
Probably windows 🤮
I think there were jailbreaks that could be done on device, but if I remember correctly this wasn’t one of them. I forget the exact year/iOS version. I wanna say I jailbroke 3 iOS versions in a row, and at that point new things had captured my interest. Eventually I found myself captivated with frontend development.
You can find my latest work at https://blorpblorp.xyz/, the obviously best client for Lemmy and soon PieFed.
So you had access to a fairly open device, where the system was considerably less restrictive than a Chromebook. Apparently many first time users don’t have that luxury any longer. They’re stuck with phones and chromebooks (phones with a keyboard slapped on, really). Good luck hacking anything with that locked up shit.
Someone else pointed out it’s not that difficult to boot Linux on your Chromebook off a thumb drive. A quick search shows it might be slightly complicated but seems pretty doable depending on your model.
Listen I hate Google, but this still seems like a dumb take. There are better things to criticize them for: illegal monopolization of search through anticompetitive practices, making their search product worse on purpose, having no respect for people’s privacy, literally removing their slogan to not be evil, etc).
I just see it as another item on a long list.
You know what, we probably agree on most of that list. And I’m happy we have Lemmy.
As I said above, schools don’t let you do that on their Chromebooks. Of course they could provide the same restrictions on other computers probably, so idk if blaming Google is the correct move.
Although they would have to go as far as not allowing any external executables for it to be that locked down.
I jailbroke my Wii
Yeah I’ve done this too. Beyond easy. There’s literally a website with step-by-step instructions. I imagine it’s the same for Kindle, etc.
Googling how to jailbreak something is not the same as having an open and functional development environment.
You don’t need to have a dev environment in order to be considered “tech literate”.
Just as a single example, an issue I’ve seen is that kids may not even understand what a file system is or how it works, because they’re used to apps like Facebook or Google Drive which abstract away from the concept of a hard-drive, a User folder, file extensions, etc. Then they grow up putting photos on instagram, writing essays on Microsoft Word, and to them it’s some unexplained internet magic. They never had first-hand experience with creating and modifying files on a local file system, and so they lack the understanding of what’s going on behind the scenes.
may not even understand what a file system is or how it works … which abstract away from the concept of a hard-drive, a User folder, file extensions, etc.
What’s funny is, filesystems, folders, file extensions are already abstractions, there is nothing inherently “right” about those particular abstractions, it’s just what we’ve used for 40 some years… Before that, you might just have blocks on a disk, or a linear stream on a tape, and it was up to you to figure out what went where, and how to find it again. Point being, it’s all just a sea of bits, regardless of how you organize them- the goal is to organize them in a way that you can forget the sea of bits.
Back in my day we brought our own MS-DOS boot disks to school to circumvent all the limitations.
For me it was Backtrack Linux on a bootable CD-RW. Set the Windows wallpaper as my background and nobody ever noticed. Man those were the days!
chromebooks suck but this isn’t really why
Thank you. It started long before chromebooks were a thing. If anything, we can blame it on windows. I remember people of my generation not understanding any tech from the mid 90s on…
People have not understood tech forever, but the 90s and '00s probably had the highest rate of tech literacy. Modern OSes obfuscate the inner workings more than they used to, meaning everyday users are less exposed to them.
This is an incredibly dumb take. Tech isn’t one dimensional and there isn’t a “right” path to tech literacy. I grew up on Windows and I learned a lot of what I know by exploring my laptops and learning new things out of necessity. I ended majoring in CS in working in tech. My sister, who’s 5 years younger than me, had Chromebooks growing up both at home and at school, yet she’s also a very proficient CS major. Using Chromebooks doesn’t show that someone is bad at tech, that’s just a baseless assumption.
Chromebooks are just another branch of tech, and there’s really nothing wrong with them. They’re basically Android tablets in laptop form. Google giving them to schools at a deeply discounted price is not a bad thing. Without them, many schools wouldn’t have any sort of tech for their kids to work with. Chromebooks are incredibly useful tools that can enable teachers to incorporate material from the internet into their lessons and help streamline their work.
Hating on things for the sake of hating on them is just lazy and counterproductive. There’s a lot to criticize Google for, Chromebooks are not one of them.
Being a CS major (even a good one) isn’t a solid measure of tech literacy. CS still suffers from the “do this arbitrary thing so you can get credit”; along with other majors and American schools at large.
Actually I’ve seen first hand the dumbing down of curriculum in my CS program via my younger peers’ stories, and helping them with their coursework. And it’s 100% due to low tech literacy.
Edit: grammar.
Not Android, Linux. I was trying to figure out why there are so few Android tablets and read that Google didn’t have complete control with Android. That’s why Samsung and HTC and others put their own overlay on it. They didn’t want that for laptops/bigger devices, so for ChromeOS they locked it down and told the hardware manufacturers “no, it’s ChromeOS. You can’t fiddle with it. If you want to make Chromebooks, these are the minimum specs and this is the keyboard you must use. If not, fuck off.”
These kind of takes have the usual format of “anything a company does is bad” and is profit driven. They forget that there is something called marketing and optics behind it.
I feel like this has way more to do with smartphones and apple than chromebooks but sure.
I work in education. The chromebooks at my school replaced the convential computer lab where kids would learn how to actually use the computer.
I graduated highschool in 2014. Very interesting that you think schools taught students how to use a computer beyond opening a browser, Microsoft word, and typing.
Wtf was up with microsoft word class? It’s designed for you to learn within 3 weeks. They had children spend 3 hours a week for about a whole year using word.
Like damn, show the other software too. I knew so many science nerds that would appreciate a week of KStars lessons.
Chromebooks are much more locked down than MacBooks.
I was suspecting they were indicating iPads
Yeah, my kid’s school has iPads for their technology classes. At least they’re still teaching them the old school internet paranoia I was taught.
Exactly, otherwise this problem would be almost exclusive to places that had this Chromebook program. Brazil as a whole had no such program, yet lots of people have no fucking clue what to do on phones besides “install app, run app”
Yeah a decade ago is not where this problem started. Nothing points to these Chromebooks. Smart phones are a good choice but also just the homogenization of the internet from like 2005-2012 as kids stopped having to figure out how to navigate the internet and install programs, instead staying on two to three websites and everything being installed as an app.
I think it’s a bit harsh to lay all the blame on google, considering the iPad exists.
Same shit different bucket.
I’d argue the iPad is the bigger offender personally. They’re blaming Chromebooks because that’s often what schools provided, but the same exact timing existed before with iMacs in classrooms all through the 90s and early 00s for millennials despite Windows being by far the more common real world OS they would need to know in the workplace.
But when it comes to portable devices the iPhone and iPad are king, that’s what young people want and often what they’re given. And those operate nearly exactly the same as a Chromebook. Toss everything into a cloud bucket, no user-facing folder structures to learn, everything locked down with limited access and customization. A take it or leave it approach to user interaction.
I have user-facing folder structures on every iOS device I own. What exactly is the extent of your personal experience using iOS?
My experience with iOS devices is mostly non-jailbroken devices, where the file system is not accessible.
What is it you think the Files app is showing you?
Not trying to be rude but the files app is absolutely not giving you anything close to full access to your devices file system. It’s an abstraction over the actual file system if anything.
A very limited scope of the filesystem instead of exposing the whole thing. Android does the same thing, and so does every system that doesn’t allow the user to have root access.
Ohh…the files are in the computer
Yeah there’s a lot more visible just by connecting via USB but it’s still not good.
Thats already more effort than most people will put forth
deleted by creator
Just to get this straight: you’re comparing the complexity of using OS X to Chrome OS. I hope you’re not also claiming you’ve actually used both of these?
Edit: also, what do you mean “no user-facing folder structures to learn”? iPadOS I get because even though it has one and has for years, it’s not required. But again: have you ever used Chrome OS? I would sooner use TempleOS, and somehow you still managed to make an invalid criticism of such a dogshit operating system.
Edit 2: 23 downvotes; 0 explanations of how I’m wrong. Stay classy, Lemmy.
The original commenter compared ipados to chromeos, and they compared osx to windows, I never saw a comparison from osx to chromeos.
The point being made is that modern operating systems often times in the hands of kids (chromeos and ipados) are designed to abstract away much of the underlying elements of the os.
They absolutely compared OS X to Chrome OS by directly comparing what Apple did in the 90s and 00s to what Google did in the 10s. If you take the comment as its own isolated thing, sure; if you understand it as a response to another comment (which it is), then the comparison is smacking you in the face.
What planet am I on right now? Should this conversation be about media literacy instead of tech literacy?
It is rich that you are suggesting this should be about media literacy. How do you connect “what apple did on the 90s” and “what chrome OS did in the 00s” (which it was the 10s, not the 00s) as a direct comparison between operating systems? What the commenter is suggesting is that both google and apple had a hand in making students not prepared to interact with technology, not that they did it in the same way.
I don’t even agree with that statement as I believe being exposed to macs at school (and likely windows at home) woild be beneficial to tech literacy. But you couldn’t even comprehend enough to engage with the point. They were saying macos is not windows, and windows is what kids should be learning. Then you come in and yell and scream about mac being better than chrome.
You were down voted because you were wrong and an asshole
How do you connect “what apple did on the 90s” and “what chrome OS did in the 00s” (which it was the 10s, not the 00s) as a direct comparison between operating systems?
Because they’re directly saying that Apple did with Macintosh what Google did with Chromebooks and that wasn’t a problem for real-world tech literacy.
What the commenter is suggesting is that both google and apple had a hand in making students not prepared to interact with technology, not that they did it in the same way.
Except that they’re using iMacs as a precedent that dumbed-down Chromebooks didn’t (at least substantially) harm tech literacy. My interpretation is somehow a generous one, because the other interpretation is that they’re comparing the iMac being complex but different from the industry standard to Chrome OS being dumbed down. These are two vastly different things.
I comprehended enough: either option is stupid as fuck – just one indicates a lack of evidence while the other indicates a lack of basic logic.
You were down voted because you were wrong […]
I’m wrong? Yeah, I originally said “00s and 10s” for Chrome OS because I thought it came out in 2008, but I looked it up and corrected myself yesterday(?) to just “10s” – completely incidental to the point of my comment. Did you notice too that OS X didn’t exist in the 90s but I called it that anyway for simplicity? No? Oh, that’s right: no one actually gives a shit.
Meanwhile, they’re spouting provable and obvious misinformation about how Chrome OS doesn’t have a user-facing folder system, so I think your explanation for why I was downvoted should leave out “I was wrong”. Clearly the voters didn’t give a shit about factual accuracy. I’m sure the other commenter used Chrome OS enough to judge it when they’re saying that. Weird how you didn’t address the part of my comment correcting transparent misinformation.
You were down voted because you were […] an asshole
I was an asshole. And any mixture of “wrong” and “an asshole” gets blind upvotes on Lemmy all the time. No, what got me downvotes is that Lemmy doesn’t have Reddit’s hidden votes feature that stops a cascade of morons blindly downvoting anything that’s at negative (I was at +2, -23 when I made my second edit; just acknowledging that blind, uncritical downvoting took that ratio from ~1:11 to ~1:3). And I’ll continue being a condescending asshole until this Lemmy equivalent of boomers giving one star to businesses they’ve never been to – because Google asked them to rate their experience – is dead.
Have a nice day.
Based on this small exchange it seems like you erect straw men to knock down to inflate your intellectual self worth which is incredibly fragile based on how much you freaked out over a tiny correction that I didn’t use at all in my argument.
If you are actually interested in engaging with the topic try harder to read what I have said
You’re not wrong. This is just lemmy.
Probably not so much that you’re wrong as you just sound like a condescending dick.
No smarm this time: my question was 100% genuine. I actually don’t know how you can use these operating systems and draw those conclusions. This feels like they ate someone else’s half-baked opinions left out overnight, got food poisoning, and threw them up into this comment.
Also, in my opinion, being condescending is the correct response to people confidently spewing complete, easily disprovable bullshit. I confidently get things wrong sometimes too, but I’m getting really sick of this “I’m qualified to speak on everything” culture that social media is exacerbating.
It is more basic than that:
“It just works” is terrible for developing computer skills.
It is damned convenient for the most part, but it removes the opportunity to have an issue and solve it, developing your troubleshooting skills.
Then we come to the lack of verbosity of modern operating systems and programs.
“Oops, there is an issue, please wait while we solve it…” is an absolutely terrible error message.
“Error 0x001147283b - Fatal error” is a far better error message.
I agree with the the sentiment of your comment, but I think both error codes aren’t great.
I want error logs or descriptions, not a cryptic code that the Company selling the OS can choose not to document publicly.
Error codes are fantastic, even undocumented codes gives users the ability to coordinate on forums and blogs to figure out the issue in a far easier manner
I can google one of these on another device and figure out what it means and at least attempt to fix it. “Something went wrong :(” helps fucking no one
Until you search that error code and it doesn’t tell you anything useful.
Then you ask on a forum and others can help you easier
Have you ever worked in an environment powered by Windows-based computers, and Microsoft software? Have you ever spoken with any user in such an environment about their experience with errors like the ones you described, and how easy or difficult it was to solve them?
I am not doing the whole passive aggressive argument where you refuse to say what your issue is and hold a clear conversation so you can try and seem like the winner and claim that I am an idiot because you have misunderstood my comment.
But to answer the specific questions posted:
Have you ever worked in an environment powered by Windows-based computers, and Microsoft software?
Yes, it has been my job for fifteen years.
Have you ever spoken with any user in such an environment about their experience with errors like the ones you described, and how easy or difficult it was to solve them?
Not only do I speak with them several times a workday, I am usually the one solving said problems meaning I get to experience it all.
My point stands, I don’t even see yours.
Fair enough, and I appreciate the clarification. That actually reinforces my point. You and I both work with people who use Windows daily and encounter these verbose errors—but they almost never understand them. They don’t use these messages to develop troubleshooting skills—they just get stuck and frustrated.
So while I get the appeal of a detailed error message in theory, in practice, it doesn’t help most users learn anything. If anything, it just creates more dependency on people like us to fix things for them.
Thank you for accepting my initial rant, I am all for a proper discussion.
I get what you mean, and while true that most people won’t get better at troubleshooting because of a verbose error message, even back in the Windows 95/98 days where you had verbose error messages, most people would still not be capable of understanding them, myself included at that time.
But my point is that the small minority of people who would start troubleshooting the stuff, myself included these days, would be vastly more helped by a verbose error message than a generic “Whops! Something went wrong, please wait!”
Modern software are not even giving people the same initial chances to troubleshoot the issue as older software did.
Oh, on that I totally agree. And not just with Microsoft with everything I run into Microsoft is especially bad because their attitude seems to we need to do something. You don’t need to know what it is and we’re not gonna tell you how long it takes so just fuck right off Which is monumentally annoying of course Apple does give a bunch of code and stuff for errors when something goes wrong and you can send it the developers, and I have never taken the time to try to figure out what any of that stuff is because I am not gonna be able to fix whatever it is and so I’m not gonna take the time. However, in my line of work where I’m supervising a lot of file ingestion people, data, architects, and software engineers, it definitely behooves me to understand what the errors I’m seeing with our own in-house proprietary products are. It’s especially frustrating when some of the higher up software engineers want to exclude me from meetings about the products going down because they claim it’s too technical for me. It’s not, of course, it’s not even the real reason; they just want to exclude me because they’re afraid of sharing their weaknesses or something. I have completely figured out what they are worried about yet, but it’s maddening.
Also, the total number of Chromebooks sold worldwide is tiny compared with phones and tablets. Most kids have probably never seen a Chromebook, but virtually every kid has held and used a phone, a tablet or both.
If you want to blame Google, blame Android, not Chromebooks.
Yeah Apple was pushing their “BSD for morons” laptops om schools long before chromebooks were a thing.
Eh, I don’t really agree.
To want to learn something starts with curiosity and the willingness to learn. I was always trying to fuck around with games and programs before I knew that modding was even a thing. When I was met with restrictions I always tried breaking them. I got around admin protection on school computers that literally only had access to the desktop.
My youngest brother on my dad’s side (my family is complicated) is a shut-in who barely acts like the adult he’s supposed to be, never owned a chromebook, and sits in front of the computer more than I even do. He is incredibly tech illiterate.
Yeah it’s a pretty bad take IMHO. When I was a kid we had one 386 desktop computer running MS-DOS. No laptops, phones or tablet. I always liked computers and when I went to high school I noticed a bunch of old broken computers in a storage room one day. Asked the computer teacher (we had computer classes learned MS Word and (blind) typing) if I could try to fix them. Me and a friend spend many luch breaks swapping parts, until about half of them worked again. Learning about something is mostly your willingness to learn. As a highschool kid I would have loved to get a laptop. If I had a Chromebook I’m fairly sure I would have tried to run a custom OS on it or see what else non standard thing I could have unlocked.
If a kid is working with a 600mhz CPU in 2025, what can they realistically do with that Chromebook other than figure out how to get past a firewall? I remember 2nd hand stories of kids bringing in USBs with cracked minecraft or quake, or screwing around with windows themeing and other nonsense. Now, thats gone. You get a browser, and a file manager. No themes, sometimes no access to even change the wallpaper, all in googles little sandbox. I think this post is somewhat accurate but leaves out the role iPhones play in tech ilitteracy
